Well you could start by stop the lie about "Did she stand up against the Muslim rumors in the same way?". In fact she did defend him against the muslin rumors and then she got smeared when her words were twisted. Look at the whole quote some time.
david
"As far as I know" -- Clinton.
Media Matters:
Less than one second. That's how long it took Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton to answer, "Of course not," to Steve Kroft's question on 60 Minutes about whether she thought Sen. Barack Obama was a Muslim. You can time it yourself by watching the clip at YouTube. Still, that didn't stop MSNBC's Chris Matthews from complaining on-air last week that it took Clinton "the longest time" to answer Kroft's question. Lots of eager, tsk-tsking pundits and reporters agreed. They said Clinton was guilty of "hemming and hawing" in response to Kroft's peculiar, repeated insistence that she make some sort of declarative statement about her opponents religious beliefs. And then when she did, Kroft asked that she do it again. That's when Clinton, looking befuddled by the multiple requests, added some qualifiers to her response, including "as far as I know." What stood out in the exchange was not Clinton's responses, but Kroft's weird persistence in asking a question that Clinton addressed unequivocally the first time, as though he was trying to draw out something she was not saying. Even more peculiar was Kroft's obsession with the Muslim question amid a 60 Minutes report that was about Ohio's shrinking working class and what Clinton and Obama were going to do to try stop of the overseas flow of U.S. manufacturing jobs. (Note to Kroft and the rest of the media: Obama is not a Muslim; Clinton knows Obama is not a Muslim; Clinton does not believe Obama is a Muslim. Clinton made this very clear.)
Still, that didn't stop MSNBC's Chris Matthews from complaining on-air last week that it took Clinton "the longest time" to answer Kroft's question.
Lots of eager, tsk-tsking pundits and reporters agreed. They said Clinton was guilty of "hemming and hawing" in response to Kroft's peculiar, repeated insistence that she make some sort of declarative statement about her opponents religious beliefs. And then when she did, Kroft asked that she do it again. That's when Clinton, looking befuddled by the multiple requests, added some qualifiers to her response, including "as far as I know." What stood out in the exchange was not Clinton's responses, but Kroft's weird persistence in asking a question that Clinton addressed unequivocally the first time, as though he was trying to draw out something she was not saying. Even more peculiar was Kroft's obsession with the Muslim question amid a 60 Minutes report that was about Ohio's shrinking working class and what Clinton and Obama were going to do to try stop of the overseas flow of U.S. manufacturing jobs. (Note to Kroft and the rest of the media: Obama is not a Muslim; Clinton knows Obama is not a Muslim; Clinton does not believe Obama is a Muslim. Clinton made this very clear.)
I think their interpretation is off. Sure, she denied it. But she also said "so far as I know" which left the door open to people thinking that she wasn't sure if it was absolutely clear if Obama is a Muslim.
It's clowns like you who want to perpetuate this bs about Clinton that's the product of people like Matthews who make me start thinking about whether I want to support someone who is supported by such jerks. Why don't you just shut up and it will be much better for your guy.
"Why don't you just shut up and it will be much better for your guy."
FYI if you are a democrat he is YOUR guy now too..... like it or not. now you can grow up and face the facts because tantrums don't work for children and it won't work for you
Then vote for someone else. Or don't vote. But stop this bullshit blackmail of "You guys better be nice or I won't vote for Obama." Then don't. I call your bluff. If you are a real Democrat, you'll choose Obama over McCain. If you aren't a real Democrat, you aren't going to vote for Obama anyway. Your choice.
I think playing the victim now is a set back for women.
Real Democrats not only vote for the democratic nominee, they also show respect to people that are hurting because they just lost something very valuable to them.
good point, politicsmatters has always done that and has always been a troll
The video is certainly powerful. It brilliantly illustrates the disgusting sexism that exists in our society and how it manifests itself openly more often than we all may realize. Racism is overt is some places, but largely has become an underground, highly encoded endeavor that manifests in the cracks of society. Both are alive and well. Both must be fought with equal vigor and seriousness.
In my opinion, one is inseparable from the other. The sexism or racism that came out from either of these campaigns against one another was unfortunate, but I don't believe that either individual or the efforts of their campaign staffs were in any way institutionally racist or sexist. Both camps could have handled things better, and it shows that we are all, not matter how open-minded and progressive, capable of crossing the line.
What makes no sense to me, whatsoever, is blaming Obama for the shit you saw in that video. In fact, the most overt example of support for sexism was when McCain agreed with the person at his town hall who asked how we are going to beat the b*tch. Facing reality and digging into the real, honest to goodness substance of this election the choice is clear. Voting Democrat will crack the door wide open for a progressive agenda that will help women, African-Americans, Native Americans, Americans of all stripes, and hopefully create a fairer society.
Obama isn't a sexist anymore than your fathers, brothers, or husbands. He probably misses some of the important things that women feel because he's a man. His intentions are in the right place. His policies are in the right place. His actions are in the right place. His words probably need education from time to time. The same goes for the race issue when it comes to Clinton people, and frankly from people in his own campaign. ALL of us need to make personal progress.
Sitting out this election, or voting McCain just isn't smart. In fact, it's stupid. Alegre may or may not be a smart, well-intentioned person. I don't know her. I know her diaries. She lost sight of the big picture in her support of Hillary Clinton.
Most of the people who supported Obama, chose to do so because they either want change and a break from the Clinton leadership that the party has seen for a generation. Or, they opposed Hillary over substance. Policy. Associations. "Crashing the Gates" was written by Kos and Jerome and spelled out the NetRoots commitment to a particular strategy. Clinton is one of the people holding on to the old, failed way of running the party. She's a tremendous individual and a visionary about a lot of things. Her ties to the failed party structure are one of the main reasons why I didn't support her.
I think you'll find that 99% of Obama supporters feel the same as I do. I would have worked to the death to elect her if she won the nomination via the rules. The pledged delegates majority, plus supers as the case turned out. Her devotion to people like Mark Penn, who didn't even know that California wasn't winner take all doomed her, and allowed Obama to show another approach to campaigning and leadership that turned on a lot of people. That's a great outcome. Hillary lost, but the Democrats won. The personal outcome for a lot of people didn't end up the way they would have liked, but I think there's an opportunity to craft our party the way we want it, including the women's agenda. Clinton will still play a major role in that progressive vision.
I understand that YouTube clip and it hurts me as well. Cutting off our nose to spite our face solves nothing and I don't quite understand people who would do it.
read my post lower down where the full bit of that interview is posted.
it isn't a "sure, she denied it". She denied it 8 times before giving the WTF else do YOU want me to say moment.
You are just spreading the BS that was seeded from this one soundbite, instead of watching it fully.
And you have never said HRC is a liar. Whatever.
jeez, that was the frikking point of asking her time and time again!
They deliberately kept asking her again and again to make her say anything that would add a qualifier, so that they then could claim their gotcha.
If you have to leave out dozens of clear statements contradictory in the same quote to get that gotcha something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Within the context is abundantly that she doesn't think that. The gotcha only works when used as a single line. But that's intellectually dishonest.
The news deliberately went with that because it would push ratings. And then people can say things like "sure she denied it, but" But what? but when pushed several times she said a single qualifier that only gains it meaning through constant contextless repetition and spurious editing?
It was a manufactured controversy. It's what the media does, and what we as the blogs should be fighting against, or at least not buy into it just because it would make such a fine attack that it would be a waste to not to belief it.
She said "No, no" in response to the first question.
After he asked again, she said "There's nothing to base that on.. as far as I know."
So the "as far as I know" was NOT in relation to Obama being a Muslim. It was in relation to there being nothing to base that on.
This is silly.
Why would you say "so far as I know" in relation to whether there's anything to base it on?
And, frankly, I don't think this is a big deal. If Clinton would have won the nomination, I would have voted for her in a heartbeat.
If you don't think it's a big deal, then why do you insist on perpetuating a clearly dishonest meme? It is as plain as the nose on your face that she denied that he was a Muslim multiple times before finally saying 'as far as I know,' and yet that's the ONLY part you choose to repeat.
Some of us Obama supporters are a bit defensive after all the harping on the "likable enough" comment (which was a slip up that was, at worst, on the same level as her "as far as I know) and the ridiculous finger-gate bullshit. Sorry that we are a bit angry also. Hillary supporters don't have the market cornered on anger.
Reality check. Our guy won, their gal lost.
The only thing worse then a sore loser is a sore winner. If you are still angry now that you won, you are in dire need of some perspective.
No, I am angry that Hillary supporters pretend like Obama is the only one with dirty hands after this primary.
I think she was surprised that he asked twice... and started questioning in her own mind whether there was some piece of "evidence" that he knew about which she didn't.
And so she said, "There's nothing to base that on... as far as I know."
This was only after she clearly said "No", when asked if Obama was a Muslim.
Make sense?
Googling "Obama Hillary New Hampshire", this comes up.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsm emo.com/2007/12/hillary_campaign_acknowl edges_that_hillary_backer_passed_along_o bama_madrassa_email.php
Hillary Campaign Acknowledges That County Chair Backing Hillary Passed Along Obama Muslim Smear Email By Greg Sargent - December 5, 2007, 1:31PM
There were other incidents like this. I was looking for the New Hampshire one, but, hey, yeah, there was the Iowa one, too, and many reports of canvassers doing the same thing.
Was Hillary Clinton directly responsible for this? I sincerely doubt it, but there is a slim possibility because politics can be just that dirty. Regardless, though, this is the kind of things people CLOSE to the Clintons were doing because they thought it would help their candidate.
It's much sillier to tar Obama for some dick in the audience waving an "Iron My Shirt" sign than it is to take umbrage at this.
Just to make it clear for anyone who does not know, the "Iron My Shirt" guys are Boston-area radio DJs. They were on paid time when they wore the shirts. It was a radio shock jock ploy, nothing more. It was not some secret evidence that all Obama supporters are sexists.
Personally I don't think that Clinton supporters faulted Obama for the shock jocks, I think they faulted some of the Obama supporters for saying stuff like
"It was a radio shock jock ploy, nothing more."
It was a blatantly sexist ploy, and comments downplaying such events wouldn't exactly inspire friendly feelings amongst the people who were disgusted by it.
I think everyone thought it was disgusting. But a good many Clinton supporters apparently thought that it was not only disgusting but then blamed Obama directly for the actions of a couple shock jocks. I, for one, thought the best course of action would be to totally ignore it in the hope that the publicity stunt wouldn't work.
Hanging the "shock jocks" up by their genitals would have been good too.
(and I'm an Obama supporter)
You've got two different points in your commen:
But a good many Clinton supporters apparently thought that it was not only disgusting but then blamed Obama directly for the actions of a couple shock jocks.
I think that is an example of perception bias, that the very few Clinton supporters who thought so have made a larger impression in your perception then warrented according to their numbers. I've seen maybe half a dozen Clinton supporters express that opinion tops. It was more a case of having a single commenter leaving dozens of comments. Which makes it seem a more widespread then it is.
I think everyone thought it was disgusting. <..> I, for one, thought the best course of action would be to totally ignore it in the hope that the publicity stunt wouldn't work.
Normally most democrats firmly denounce such actions. The fact that so many Obama supporters either though it best to ignore it, or actively downplayed it made a lot of Clinton people feel like such sexist was not condemned by and even tactically supported by some of the Obama supporters. Surely you can see that the appearence was unfortuneatly.
I think the difference is that Obama supporters (who are more likely to be young) see that both sexism and racism have slowly started to fade. Neither will ever go away fully, and there is still a long way to go. But many of us realize that jumping up and pointing out every instances of racism and sexism and saying "There's one! That's bad!" is not the best way to deal with it.
There was a good article in this week's Time (by Joe Klein I think?) about pessimistic feminists who think women are as bad off as they were 30 years ago and optimistic feminists who see things changing. The pessimists voted for Hillary; the optimists voted for Obama.
so that makes it OK how again?
No one ever said it's ok. It was ridiculously sexist. And it should remind us of the impact of the MSM (not that these guys were really mainstream). But let's not pretend that these guys were even "real" people expressing their personal beliefs. Not only were they not Obama supporters somehow being sexist. Not only were they not regular joes illustrating the willingness of men to be outrightly and blatantly sexist. They were radio shock jocks not expressing their own personal views. They were trying to be as outrageous as possible to get ratings. Not unlike Rush Limbaugh. So let's not pretend like that event somehow illuminated the secret world of women-hating men, because I call bullshit.
I've seen the whole clip. Obama didn't say Clinton was a racist either, that doesn't keep people from being angry at his for not doing so.
and Jesse Jackson, Jr, in addition to saying she didn't cry over Katrina, also mentions her not crying over the Iraq war veterans and other people as well. But for Clinton supporters who want to twist it, he said that she doesn't care about black people. He didn't (not that his argument wasn't specious, it was, but for different reasons).
right here. She's hoping apparently that Hillary will wrest the nomination from Obama.
She's hoping supers will spontaneously realize their dreadful mistake. I'm not too worried about that happening.
I was incredibly in touch with her during the course of the campaign. She was so committed to a Democratic victory in the fall. I feel some disappointment that she didn't follow through on what she was saying on a regular and consistent basis throughout the campaign. I was talking about McCain and sitting it out; she always told me I had to go with the party. Here I am with the Party, and I miss her.
